From Valedictorian to Prisoner: Thomas Pham on War, Captivity, and the Stories We Believe
Profilers: Danny Ren, Nikitas Klapsis, Ben Thai, Casey Troy, Ailish Mulvihill
Introduction
My name is Pham Kim Thoai. It is my Vietnamese name. When I came here, I changed it a little bit, Thomas Pham. Age is… on the certificate, I was born in 1947. But the real year is 1946. I think. 1945.
In 1954, we traveled from North Vietnam to South Vietnam. Together with my parents, my family. I came over here in 1990. That means–1990–around 35 years already.
What was your life like before the war?
I studied at a high school in Saigon. I studied at Saigon High School. In 1960, around that. I am not sure that I remember the exact date. But around 1960, I went to Saigon. After high school, I went to college. University of Saigon. And I lived in Minh Mac Dormitory.
When I started high school, at the beginning of high school, I studied at Saigon University of Science. And lived at Minh Mac University, a university residence.
After I graduated from Saigon University of Science. Then I.. that is now, back then… During that time … Yearly, we had to finish our studies. If I failed any, I would have to go to army.
After I completed that college… In the time I Studied at the University of Science I got exempt from military drafting due to studies. The first thing [degree] is only four years. After four year college, then go to army. But at that time I have some problem with my lung. That’s why I went to Army School. But they let me go home.
Before I had problems with my lungs. The period in which I was exempt was only one year. Only one year. Then I came back, I returned to study again. Back to school. After one year, they did a Re-Exam. This time. They said OK, not ready yet. Go back again. So I studied two extra years. OK. So in total I have six years in college. Two years in MS. And four years in BS. In that time… During the two years I went back to study, for those two years, I also went to teach.
What was life like during the war?
The war was very long, but it really affected my life starting in about 1960. Before that, I was young therefore it did not affect me yet. After 1960, when I came to Saigon to study, the war, in Saigon, still seemed to not have much of an impact yet. Only until 1963, did the war start to explode, everywhere. And all the students, high school and college… during that time.
In 1963, the coup of Diem’s government occurred, Ngo Dinh Diem. That is, the army with the support of the US, Overthrew the government of President Ngo Dinh Diem. After that time, the face of Saigon changed a lot and very often. From one leadership to the other in the South. So the life of every student is now very much affected. Because all students, all high school students, from the age of 16 to 17 years old, had to both study and do military training.
1968 is the year that the communists in the North invaded all the cities of the South. Even with that invasion, it doesn’t mean the Communists were hoping that they would win the war at the time. Now, looking back, we understand that their purpose was to make themselves present everywhere in the South. From that year on, that year, the war came very close, and you could feel that it could happen anytime, and anywhere. Now you’d start to see people dying because of the war. Before you wouldn’t see it.
Did anyone you know personally pass during the war?
Blood related? No. But there were many friends, some distant relatives, and acquaintances.
What was your role during the war?
After training in military school for about a year, I graduated as an officer, ranking as a lieutenant.
The first place I worked was Saigon. The reason I got to choose Saigon was because I graduated valedictorian in military school, so I was permitted to choose. That’s why I got to choose first.
The first place I worked at was called the Capital Military Command. Capital Military Command.
What happened when the North took you as prisoner?
In 1975, April 30th, South Vietnam. The entirety of South Vietnam fell into the hands of the Communists. That is, around June, June 1975. Then I got put into prison, but they called it the re-education camp. I was in the re-education camp for nearly 6 years. And moved around to many camps, about 5 to 6 different ones. I got to come home in 1980. At the end of 1980.
What was a typical day like at the re-education center?
There are many things to say, but in summary, the most terrible thing was that we didn’t know when we’d be released.
The first few years, the support we were allowed to get from family was very limited. The things we had to face daily were hunger and sickness. No medicine, hungry, not enough food to eat. It wasn’t that they didn’t give you food, but that they gave very little portions. So the hunger is constant, and building up, day-after-day. It became extremely frightening. It made your head all day, always, only think about food.
The third thing is that they forced prisoners like me to work very hard, heavy labor, for example, I had to go about 20 miles into the forest to cut wood. To cut trees, cut bamboo, for them, to make houses or to let them do whatever with it. Some camps had lodges, and they’d put us in there. Some of the camps I’d arrive to, there was nothing yet, just forest. We’d have to build our own place, our own lodge to stay.
My first memories of prison, which was from the first 2-3 months, was fear and a terrible disappointment, which everyone felt, but especially for me at that time, because your grandma was pregnant. With your mom’s sister.
At that time there was another thing. In the first 1-2 months, the hatred between the two sides was still very, very intense. The communist soldiers, the people that watched us in prison. Those people, to us, were very, very wary and tense.
So a big event happened at the time, I recall, it was Ho Chi Minh’s birthday. I don’t remember the date, but I remember that day was Ho Chi Minh’s birthday. They gathered all the prisoners to practice singing, to celebrate that day. While we were practicing, there was a grenade. There were guards, that were gathered next to us, about 10 feet out. Between us a fence. 10-15 feet, 15-20 feet. A grenade was thrown from that group. Thrown from the guards, into where we were gathered. 7 people died at once. Fortunately, I was not harmed. Only 7 people died. Wounded is more, but dead is 7 people.
And the image that was the most terrifying, was them putting 7 coffins in a cardboard-like container. It was very… It was like a box of paper. It was placed there 4-5 days in public so that we could see as an example.
During that time in the prison, especially that first 3-4 years, there weren’t many people who escaped from the camp. It was not often, but when it happened, and unfortunately, if those people were caught, they would be executed in front of us for us to witness.
Tell us about your family coming to America.
My family includes me, my wife and 6 children.
We came over here, and reside in Orange County. In the beginning, compared to others, our family was doing relatively well.
My family, that is, me, my wife and 6 children. 6 children. 3 boys, 3 girls.
During that time, we got assistance first from the US government, and second from my parent’s family. Therefore our situation, compared to others, was relatively pleasant.
But I want to say a little more, the journey to travel from Vietnam to US, it was not simple at all.
I used to build my own boats to find a way, to escape by sea. I built my own boats 3 times. To say “boat” sounds so big. But in reality, it was just a small boat the size of. About… I think it’s about… The length of it is about… 8… 8 meters, 24 feet, about 24 feet. Its width was about 9 feet.
Going out to the sea, we’d expect that there’s an 80% chance that we might die.
Your mom, and her sister was put into prison for trying to escape. But it was not me, I was not the one who organized the trip. That trip I was partnered with another person, that is, in addition to the three boats I built, I also cooperated with people to organize other trips. In it, there was a trip with your mom and your aunt. And… And they got caught.
Finally, in the end… Out of all the trips I organized, only two were able to escape. Only two times. The other time… Or… With other people, your mother was arrested. But with me doing it, no one was caught.
How did you personally get to America?
Finally, I came over here with a program called ODP.
No, H.O.
ODP or H.O?
Oh, ODP is different. I went with H.O. At that time, I did everything to leave Vietnam.
OK, H.O. And we are the first group called H.O.1. We are the first group to use that program to do everything.
How do you feel about American involvement in the war and America’s response after the war?
The war in Vietnam is really a battle between two ideals, one side is capitalist, one side is communist. And unfortunately, it happened in Vietnam.
The American intervention in the Vietnam War, it is very deep, at a complicated level. A level that is too high for us, that is, you can’t explain fully in-depth. But the influence of America and the responsibility of Americans in the Vietnam War was at a very high level.
The first mistake was that the Americans were the main force behind the overthrowing of President Diem’s government, causing the political system of the South to go into chaos and eventually collapse completely.
The reason the Diem Coup happened was because of the Americans. At that time, President Diem did not want the Americans to insert themselves directly into the Vietnam War.
Do you resent America’s involvement or are you happy that it happened?
Talking about my feelings, there are really two. The first one is that I am very resentful of the interference by the Americans, deeply into Vietnam’s politics. The second one is that it was also a fortunate thing. It was a chance, because at the time, for me, studying abroad was very difficult.
Do you think there are any misconceptions people have about the Vietnam War?
In honesty, my understanding is not fully comprehensive even though I was directly involved in the war because there were so many factors that we just didn’t know. At the time, I was very young, I had just stepped into the real world, just finished school. All understanding of the history and of the war was from the teachings in school.
Now, looking back, at my current age, there are feelings, it’s different. To conclude, where the truth lies or how the war really affected people, it’s the whole big question, which is not simple.
Beyond our questions is there anything you’d like to a
I wanted to tell you, in order to learn about the Vietnam War, or really any war, you must research very carefully. All the things that you read in the books, you must know which source it comes from, it is very important. From the source, it goes to the branches, which present the truth differently.
I want you guys to, when reading any historical document, be very careful to consider whether the source is trustworthy. And the person—the origin of the source, the person behind the source—how true is it? That’s very important.
All the things I told you today, I say with how I remember, and with all the truths that I know within my own understanding. I do not dare to say it is the complete truth, but according to my understanding, I’m saying everything I know.