Rudy Kallock

Rudy Kallock

Profilers: Jordan Farahnik, Simon Park, William Parma, and Mason Woodard

Part 1: Introduction

Part 1: Introduction

my name is my real name is Albert Callock I go by Rudy I’ve been uh for forever and um currently I live in Agawam Massachusetts

maybe 73 in may I come from a family eventually six mother father I’m the oldest three boys there were three boys me my two brothers growing up we my father

world war II went to Northeastern University graduated lived in Boston and moved from Boston

back to western mass and then down to Texas where my father was in the insurance industry during all that time we traveled the family it was my brother the two of us at the time and my parents traveled from Massachusetts through the south so I got a good they gave me a pretty good upgrade upbringing on military history we visited Gettysburg um lookout mountain and you know places that were important that they wanted to make sure that I knew about the history and about the country and everything so I know I had a strong sense of where

this country came from history always meant a lot to me and I thought going to school was going to be my um my priority to teach history I just saw myself as graduating and teaching history and then just going on and having six kids and you know the American dream and

everything like that’s you know what I thought at the time I always say my world changed

on November 22, 1963. President Kennedy was a young young wife um two kids and you know and you were in high school and you felt you sort of felt yeah man this is cool here’s a young president that’s you know and even though we’re starting into Vietnam and the movies

out there was the green berets and John Wayne and and we’re fighting communism and I think

that was the theme growing up too was fighting communism um Nikita Khrushchev at the new end taking the shoe and banging and thing on the uh we’re gonna bury you people uh by you know making fallout shelters duck and cover the Cuban missile crisis where we, I guess, we came pretty close to you know, living in Massachusetts, how far are you from Cuba. I mean it’s there was that sort of sense of you know communism the domino theory I always said the domino theory was one of these things that were very very um present there was something that the communists it was us against communism and uh you know and then if we had to go to you know Vietnam was that place where we were going to stop but we were going to plant our flag and we were going to stop them right there we had done in

Korea but now we’re you know now they’re they’re it’s it’s in uh you know it’s in north it’s communism and once they go through north Vietnam and south Vietnam they can go anywhere so that was the sort of mindset that we were indoctrinated with but President Kennedy was was was you know when he got assassinated I remember that day I was going to hitchhike down to the funeral in Washington and it was a dark day and it sort of synced with how you were feeling that here was this young president gone Lyndon Johnson who was a good man is now the president and uh you sort of you sort of lost your political you know asked me whatever the the political feelings I had and but then that that those are resurrected probably in 68 um 67 68 when cities were burning Detroit um l.a out there in watson everything like that um you know now what’s going on the country’s on fire um Martin Luther King being assassinated um rfk beings you know you know and it was all this this stuff that was just going on it was like you know what the hell is going on here and you sort of became numb to it and the war was always in the background the war was always this this uh this this this movie that was running in the background you know meanwhile the city you know it was it was really and you sort of like I said you became numb to it you sort of kind of went back into your own self and said well you know try not to think about it I guess I had to be numb to what was going on I mean my you know politically and with Johnson and and whatever I you know um so yeah

Part 2: Life & Society Before Service

Part 2: Life and Society Before Service

You know, I remember one incident, it was probably 1965, and we were down on Cape Cod and there was a kid strumming a guitar and he was he had a little sign he was basically kind of

protesting the war this was 1965 and some other kid came up and threw a cigarette in his face

and you know it was very unpopular back there in 1965 I mean like I said you you watched it every night on tv and it became since it was on tv every night it was like well here’s a section about the war and everything that’s not me you know and then you know you sort of there was a sort of a sense of distance but when my friends started coming back it had a little bit more impact you know like I said these guys were early war one of them was a door gunner and and

sometimes it let us in about shooting you know from the air shooting whatever was moving water buffalo uh from the air and everything and you know but you just didn’t want to you know go eventually we moved back here to um back up here to west Springfield in 1960

and I went to school finished high school in 1966. Um my father was out of work so I worked a

Then I had an opportunity to go to school I wanted to get away from here so I went to a school in Ohio called Defiance College I wanted to play football I played a little football out there but um I was asked to leave because I was a little bit um oh you know at that road going down the road going through the woods and splits but I was asked to leave because I was a little bit rowdy and out of control promising me, promising me, that I would be able to come back in the fall at that time all of us if you were in school you had what they call a 2s deferment

student deferment um and if you did and you know there are other deferments if you were medically 4f and everything if you were 1a that meant that you were eligible for the draft the draft was in existence back then you had to register at 18 um at the post office to be you know to be eligible for the draft it was a requirement it was a law so anyways I tried to get back into

school in the fall they weren’t going to let me they had already changed my status from 2s to 1a so I knew I was going to be inducted because at that time the draft was and this wasn’t this was just before the uh the lottery draft system this was um they were taking everybody in fact there was a thing called Project 100 000 where they were they needed bodies

uh over in Vietnam and I was one of them along with two of my high school friends who um who uh we all got drafted together in uh January of 1969 and um uh from there we were drafted and uh I remember in the uh in the draft office there that they asked for marine volunteers everybody kind of got as small as they could because at that time if you’re going into the marines you were going into combat but we all assumed my friends that you know we’re all going to Vietnam um that you know that that’s inevitable

Part 3: Basic Training, Duty, and War

Part 3: Basic Training, Duties, and War

The war was always in our background the war was always as you came home and eating dinner at the table the war every night what was going on with the war what were the casualty rate what was going on that kind of thing and you sort of shrugged aside some of my friends came back and they were definitely changed they had sort of in terms of just not being lost but just just distant from when I knew them and uh you didn’t ask what they did you didn’t want to infringe upon their privacy they came back and you sort of but after coming back it just seemed that you weren’t you couldn’t as you weren’t as close to them as as you once were because I don’t know we don’t know why it was just the nature of the beast that they had been in this place called Vietnam they didn’t want to talk about it and if you did mention it they would either get angry or just you know change the subject so so this is this was kind of the the background that we were dealing with prior to going to Vietnam that you know if you were 1a you were going which I became and like I said I tried to get in the air national guard the army national guard the reserves federal reserve but everybody else had the same idea I was too late

so the three of us got drafted and found found ourselves in uh Fort Jackson in January 1969. I had signed up for another year because the deceased the sergeant said if you sign up you can pick where you want to go I said sounds good I can kind of control my destiny I thought at the time and I signed up for supply school for the place called uh was it for Petersburg Fort Lee Virginia uh near Petersburg Virginia so you finish eight weeks of basic and you go to where you what they call ait advanced individual training I was drafted uh was eventually sent to Vietnam in June 69 I was assigned to the 11th Army Cavalry Charlie Troupe there were three squadrons each squadron was made up of four companies mine was first squadron a b

c d alpha bravo charlie delta I was the armorer and the armor was was the small arm specialist for that unit you had to maintain the 50 all the the 50 cals on the on the down the tanks the a cabs m16s which is you know the assault rifle m79 all the small arms you were

responsible for to make sure that the the people in the tracks had functioning weapons because obviously in in combat and contacts you need everything to be working for you sometimes would be out in an area I remember running one day looking for the the nva running over a dead body and exploding all over me it was just it was bloated from sitting out there and the track ran over it you know there are little memories that that sort of that come back to you at night you would be in the you you’d be on the jungle you’re you’re your troop and it’d probably be maybe I don’t know 25 tracks in a wagon train circle and you would be it would be a

cleared out area and you would have the jungle probably within 25 30 yards of you and you never you know you’re sitting there as night is going you’re looking what’s out there you know what’s what’s what’s what’s going to happen tonight you you your your your senses were all up

a thousand percent i think about nights a lot because there were times when you’re you’re on

guard duty usually two hours on and then you know somebody else and then maybe four off you’d sit in what they call the cupola of the track it’s a the top where the commander is the track commander you’re behind a 50 a radio and it’s so black that you can’t even see your hands if you’re holding them in front of your face and what you have is a radio and every maybe half hour somebody’s calling from the there’s a track in the middle of the command track calling it a sit rep c18 you know uh c18 uh nothing go you’d say I have to get the negative negative negative something and you just click off you see that little red light blinking and then you you’d call in and say everything you know situation normal whatever but you couldn’t see your hands and you were always out there just looking peering into this darkness and what was out there and you know I remember one time we were sitting there and way off in the distance I would say maybe three 400 yards and again I don’t know if this is a dream but the the nva when they were going through the jungle would carry these day glow sticks to mark their way where they were going and I swear that there were green day glow sticks you could see them they’re putting on

trees to mark where they needed to go and everything like that so they were out there sometimes if we if we had an ambush patrol some we’d have maybe three or four people out in front and kind of what they call a listening post an lp and they might hear contact so we might decide to have what they call a mad minute and that means that every weapon in the are the main guns the machine guns that say 2 31 in the morning opens up for a minute and

it’s just noise and light and explosions and everything like that and you’re in that

wagon train circle and next morning you go out there and you see you know was there anything out there and sometimes you would find blood trails you know where somebody had been wounded they had dragged somebody off

Part 4: Quan Loi, Cameras, & Survivor’s Guild

Part 4: Quan Loi, Cameras, and Survivor’s Guilt

Probably my big big thing was August 12th the ground attack at quan loy Quan Loi like I said was was a target to capture Quan Loi would be a big feather in the the nva’s cap it was near a town called Anlock which is a regional capital but anyway there must have been a couple of nva regiments come through we i remember running out uh shrapnel hit the rubber trees we were in a rubber plant Quan Lawrence was in a rubber shrapnel hit up the rubber tree up ahead and I got trapped on my head I used I used to pick out I don’t do it anymore but you still little pieces come out but anyway it was at night explosions going down to the main line next day next morning just bodies all over I mean you could literally walk on bodies for probably a hundred yards blown in half arms legs I mean guys dragging them you know the the vc dragging themselves or cut in half and just one half would be 25 yards away and it looked like they had just dragged that half of the body it was it was something that I live with you know obviously on August 12th that particular incident and everything I was back in Benoit our main area kind of getting parts to go back out to the field and uh we decided to go this place called Mamasan’s to have a beer and i just bought this brand new Yashica camera and it was on the seat of the truck we were in so we’re sitting around having a beer and Mamasan’s pointing at me and pointing the truck well some kids had gotten to the truck and were took the camera and we’re going down the road i remember grabbing my M16 and aiming and pulling the trigger except I had the friggin thing unlocked thank god and I always think about that that if I had opened up in those kids over a freaking camera and and kill these kids what would have happened what would you know what I mean sort of these little sort of nuances I guess that that sort of to this day you know what what would have happened I mean killing you know three or four kids or stealing a camera I was pissed off because I just got in the camera was a nice one but still killing those kids no you know so that that’s that that’s something that sort of did bothers me you know to this day and everything so first and only time I smoked pot in Vietnam and it got really high and we had to go out into a contact riding in the track and obviously when you’re high everything is amplified well a guy a couple of tracks over his name was forgiven his name was he was killed and you sort of take it upon yourself to say you know if I wasn’t high could I have sort of done something to sort of you know fight that’s that’s always that I think that’s a common theme with vietnam guys or anybody’s combat that there’s there’s a survivor’s guilt I was watching a movie we had outdoor movies and it was kind of boring and i said I’m gonna go back to my bunker and I said now wait and by not going back we did we took a incoming bunch of incoming and I had a direct hit on my bunker I figure if I would have walked if I would have left the movie I would have walked right into that you know the the mortar round hitting my bunker so you know there’s those little things about fate and then you know being at the right place the right time some people weren’t some people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time and and uh you know I’ll give you a story sometimes people would come through that were from New England in this case it was a guy from John I’ll say his name was John he would he had he was from Newfield Newtown Connecticut anyway he uh he he had his his unit the ninth it was going home so he had six months left to go so he had to spend his he they transferred him into the eleventh cab and uh I remember you know talking before he went back out to the field and you know having a few beers and everything like that and he had to do his time and everything in six months anyways I was driving for the colonel and one of my friends came over and said Uh John’s dead he said he was in contact took a direct hit he was a track commander took from an rpg and everything like that you think about that that you know here’s the guy that you know why’d they have to send why couldn’t they have just sent him home why did they have to kind of send them you know keep him in Vietnam and whatever and you know it’s you know I when I go to the wall it’s one of the first things that I do I see John’s name and I kind of remember him and uh you know it’s it’s it’s that kind of thing of being at the wrong place at the wrong time that that’s you know that that that happens in war like that

Part 5: Returning Home, The Stigma of Defeat, & Pot

Part 5: Returning Home, the Stigma of Defeat, and Pot

Coming back that first weekend in Martha’s Vineyard and you know people knew I was in the army because of my short hair this was 1970. and you know it was how many how many did you kill how many years how many set of years did you you know how many set of years did you do you know did you do this did you do that and you know I just you just you kind of like you know you laughed it off and you know well no I you know you know to do anything like that you know you were back in the world and you were you were getting oriented you were it was it was like I said coming back going over and coming back was basically night and day coming when I was going over you know getting on the plane mother said goodbye and everything and it seemed everything was normal when I got back it just seemed like everything had exploded long kids in long hair smoking pot in the street the protests you know and the war and everything and uh so it was it definitely changed the thing that blew me away over there

was that and this always will haunt me as the incident at Kent State where we uh the national guard shot five kids and I had been at you know Kent’s visited Kent state and uh to this you know in a blurb on the page five way in that we deepened you know page five little maybe 15 sentences you know five kids and you know what are we doing you know as you know I talked to I still have a lot of vietnam veterans around here and we we talked about the fact that when we got back you know nobody wanted to know you were in the army in Vietnam you couldn’t go apply for a job and say yeah I did my time in the army because if you did at that I always thought that that time with the media that the tv show programs were always or the movies were always you know some Vietnam veteran drunken on drugs has cut the head off a baby we got to go get them and this is being broadcast at this time in the 70s you know in in all over the country and everything but it seemed to me there was always a crazy Vietnam vet that

you know was and this sort of was into the psyche that so you learned not to say you were in Vietnam I thought people would you know initially you know well hey he’s back he’s here and everything like that and you eventually find out that you know again this was 69 70 the war is running out I mean the wars is is hugely unpopular okay and and uh like I said it’s it’s it was more unpopular I mean it started getting really the tech was the turning point that was

I believe was that it was the turning point where the that light at the end of tunnel sort of and Nixon’s president but don’t forget we lost the war that’s the stigma that the Vietnam we lost the war okay this we were the first whatever troops or whatever you know generation to lose a war and that was something you know you you the vfw well we don’t want you guys you know we don’t want you guys you guys lost the war you’re crazy you’re you’re this and that I got back and eventually uh I had friends that said you want to drive pot back from your place from southern california we were living in tustin and uh yeah so we would get there’s this thing called you could take somebody’s car and they needed driven across the United States so we would look for a car like an ltd Ford had a big trunk that we would load maybe a couple hundred pounds of bricks of marijuana drive it back and you know I get paid maybe a couple of thousand

dollars to do that for like three days work which would go with nothing but again there was that feeling of just there’s the police out there I’m getting over them the police are the nva I’m really

trying to empty that that receptacle that I’m trying to get this thing you know this this thing out of me and I’m doing it I’m like I’m back in numb where they’re basically I like it into the wild west where anything goes now I’m doing this I’m sort of I’m reinvigorated by by doing this so eventually we went from that to to uh boatloads and we we had two guys from Newport that used to sail with Ted Turner and uh they were going down to Columbia getting uh tons of pot bringing it back to the Rhode Island we had a house in the shore in Rhode Island loading it up bringing it on shore from from zodiac boats carrying into the house and I’d be paid probably I don’t know thirty forty thousand dollars you know and uh so we did that twice and then i moved out to Lake Tahoe when I was gonna buy a house out there this was probably around 1975 and uh waiting for the next trip to come up which was the they they purchased they had rented an island in this in the Juan de Fucus straits off of Seattle Barnes Island and uh we we were the guys that said that the the guy from sailboat was going to uh pick up tie sticks and so we were waiting and we were prepared they had as you saw in the article two super powered boats called skipjacks twin 280 i mean these things would fly through the water so what we would do is load the pocket load the pot on the island put it on the skipjack bring it to shore and load it in the stash house we didn’t know they were dea agents from the adjoining island on Clark Island but we were told to do things at night and one of us broke their rule did of the day which sort of they called the Coast Guard and we get busted and you know and I’m in court in Seattle and they didn’t know what they had and I was sort of able to say well I was just you know i’ve been doing this off the 70s I was just driving a boat or driving a trailer you know I minimized my role there so I said okay we’re going to give you two years went before the judge and he said judge Jack Tanner black judge Mr Callock you have anything to say before he sends her I goyes your honor I’ve already done a year he goes what do you mean I said I did a year in Vietnam now he must have just gone to seeing the deer hunter or something like that because it was about this time he goes you know I believe you I’m only going to give you a year so I went to this federal facility minimum security Allenwood Pennsylvania and when you go there when you get the year they usually knock off three months from good time if you don’t screw up and when you get out of there you have to go three months or a half a halfway house so on there for six months there’s no fences you’re just there and again it was the time where it was as somebody said prison did what it was supposed to do for me made me think and again I’m very very glad that I went the only consequence was that I’m a convicted felon and now as a convicted felon I’ve found that you know you couldn’t get work I wanted to work for the va and you know I said I’m going to take a chance well no we can’t hire you I was I applied for a probation officer and I was living in the boston area and I went before a couple of judges they asked me questions and I told them i was you know we can’t do it so you had to live your life with a family and trying to get a good job but you always answer that question you know have you ever been convicted but fortunately i found this job that they didn’t check my background and it was the best job I ever had the last job i retired from so you know but you know that was a consequence I mean you know do you ask yourself would you have done it over again but you know it did I met my wife if I wasn’t in jail there wouldn’t have been my wife you know because it was because of the fact that i decided to go back to school I went back to BU met her in a blind date at BU so you know life’s strange and everything it’s a strange trip and everything so you know I you know it worked out and knock on wood you know everything you know I’m okay.

Part 6: Trauma & Recovery

Part 6: Trauma and Recovery

And like I said we operated in three core which was near the camp which is adjoining the Cambodian border in war zone c probably the most heavily sprayed area with Agent Orange so you were working in Agent Orange every day coming up with your driving going through the jungle or any place any kind of condensation coming down was always coming on you you were just it was I would say 365 you were you were inundated with with some kind of Agent Orange exposure I have diabetes too I have peripheral neuropathy my feet are starting to I mean I’m older and everything like that but I’ve always had you know you never you know coming back from from Nam you know you don’t think anything is you know I mean you always have this ringing in your ear well you just don’t pay attention to it but as you get older like I said

diabetes start the onset of diabetes too and that’s something i’ve been dealing with for the past oh shoot 10 years you know three shots a day and everything a high blood pressure I had

high blood pressure at age 30 uh neoliberal property on my legs that uh this sensation is gone

are going so you know the Agent Orange is sort of this oh god nebulous sort of substance that they really haven’t I always said that 50 years from now they’ll figure out what Agent Orange actually did to us I’m still in therapy at the at the va and I was just talking to my cousin I said you know when you get I don’t know if this is true but I think for a lot of US Vietnam veterans getting out it’s almost like there’s a receptacle that still has something left in it that

hasn’t been emptied and you know and we have to empty that we’re obligated to get get through that some people don’t empty that and they just kind of live with it and the war is don’t talk about it or just you know stay away we lost that war and you know it was and we didn’t have the

we didn’t no nobody talked to us I mean like I said up until Iraq the Iraq War which really kind of

changed things for us where they started having vet centers now you could come back and they could talk and you could say you could de-process some of the stuff about the war but we had a gap of say from 1970 or even before that until say 1985 uh you know when they started figuring out ptsd and everything like that so what was going on you had a generation that was sort of just lost I mean just bend for yourself deal with do what you have to do to get by and that’s I think that’s kind of what I thought that’s where I was this is part of you know this whole thing the vietnam experience there are a lot of things I think that are still back there that are still in my head that I haven’t processed that i don’t want to go to because if you go to them that means that you have to spend time and is it worthwhile to deal with that stuff in my age you know I’ve that’s that’s sort of one of those little situational dilemmas that you have to that I have to deal with I don’t know about and I think a lot of us have to do with that you know some of us just don’t want to do it you know and why why should they so eventually I got out of the you know I get out of the army went back to school eventually I figured out after getting a summer camp I want to go back to school went to Boston University got a degree in Rehab Psychology i wanted to work as a physical therapist but I didn’t make it so I would rehab psychology and I eventually ended in hospitals and whenever I was in the va and in hospitals I wanted to work with the va

but I was always assigned to the the Vietnam any veteran coming in specifically the Vietnam veteran coming in but in the side there you were also you know it was in the va it was called battle fatigue shock and the in the therapy was to give them what they call three hots and a cot give them a three meals and a bed to stay in send them down to OT to do a vase they really didn’t understand a lot of us coming back what we were dealing with so you know and I had gone through that with the with the 70s and everything but there were people that were still

dealing with the war being alcoholism drug addiction stuff like that so I you know I it was sort of a mission that I sort of wanted to find out and i worked with a lot of you know with vietnam veterans and trying to figure out coming back joined one of the first ptsd groups they didn’t even know called combats at the local hospital up in Northampton the va hospital it was a group of us it was really cool because there was a group of us that got together and didn’t share

war stories but just shared what was going on in our lives you know you always think that as a veteran you’re the only only one going through this but when you’re in a group a group situation you find that yeah yeah I’ve gone through six divorces you know I’m drinking I did this I did that and you know and somebody said well yeah I thought i was the only one so combats was one of these these early and there was something there about it that you know that and about ptsd and then finally some of the doctors and the va started coming up with this theory on

ptsd and it’s sort of grown from that that you know that that there are different aspects of this

particular disease pertaining to the individual and what they went through and everything

and a lot of us have just we don’t want we don’t want to say there’s anything wrong with us that’s the first thing you’re dealing with sort of psychological issues it’s it’s there’s nothing wrong with me and you sort of put it in the back of your mind and does it affect your relationships

without sure it does does it affect that you don’t want to be around people sure it does does it

affect your relationships with other people because when you’re with other people they might die just like other people did in vietnam and now you have to go through that all again I went through that when my wife passed away in the in in 2012 you know it was it was you know why you know it’s it’s I mean I still live with that and I’m sort of dealing with it but it was sort of

you know brings back that you know that that sort of ptsd feeling of losing people or you know and people I know from from Vietnam one of my friends I had heard uh over in my unit had uh

suicidal driven right into a truck you know he just wanted to end it all I have personal friends that one guy I live in the Connecticut river here jumped off the bridge you know uh just you know another friend uh Danny shot himself in the head you know so you know I don’t know what to say I mean it’s you know PTSD is it’s like it’s just it’s got so many tentacles and everything like that but you have to be able to be open to deal with it which I’ve gone through many groups and everything like that and I’ve found a lot of I’ve been fortunate there with the VA since 1990 they have some really really good people to talk to about you know the situation it’s kind of like a lifeline for me so.

Part 7: PTSD, Road Rage, & Teaching

Part 7: PTSD, Road Rage, and Teaching

There was an incident that you know you talk about PTSD and this you know probably around 10 years ago I was driving in New Hampshire one of my daughter’s soccer tournaments and

um we in New Hampshire they have the toll booths you have to stop and then you know put the toll in and I’m driving a toll booth and I’m looking behind me and there’s this woman looks like she’s falling asleep she’s you know she’s driving so i slowed down and honked my horn and

she started screaming at me like you know mopping off and I pulled into the bay and she’s right

behind me I could see her in my rear view mirror I said this so I get out of the car and the thing and I went over to her side where she was and I’m back in vietnam and I wish I had an M16 because I was going to jam it through the window and let it go I was going to let you know this this this piece of was and again it was the weirdest thing that ever happened to me it was like I

said it’s almost boy scares the hell out of me that that you can sort of snap at that particular moment I don’t know why but I want I remember just thinking it was only like around three or four seconds I wanted to take a M16 put it through the window and let it go and uh that was it but you know I all of a sudden I snapped out if it got into my car and got the hell out of there but it was just so weird and pete you know and you know brought the war back and I was there for

like five seconds and and you know and when I retired I drove a lot and sometimes you’d be

driving and you look over the side of the road and one and there’d be a blown out area and you

would look over and all of a sudden this little piece of thing and your eyes would be off the road for three or four seconds when you’re going 70 miles an hour and you know it was scary which is one of the reasons I retired because I just eventually this it was after my wife passed away too that I said I can’t do this anymore the Vietnam experience had sort of come back or you know it was more acute than it was you know which you know it’s it’s I guess it sometimes gets that way it could be depending on the situation and you know to this day you look up you hear a

helicopter and you say oh that’s a Chinook nope that’s a Huey or that’s that’s that you know you sort of in your back that little vignette you’re you’re it’s going off in your head and everything so

you know we’re very I think as a Vietnam vet we’re very very thankful and grateful I am personally for what the va and the you know it wasn’t like that originally but the va has come a long way like I said my father had frozen feet uh had in you know and then really would would go to the va but they could do nothing other than operate operations and again just let me talk about my father just for a second he had severe PTSD severe and he never he had six kids he eventually had ECT shock therapy was a little bit suicidal and everything and lost his job and everything but you know managed to survive divorced my mother and then remarried her again in 12 years so I mean it’s you know but I always thought that you know he never he never said anything and this is the way the World War II guys were they didn’t talk about many of them didn’t talk about their experiences and we were supposed to be like that you didn’t talk about your war experience you sort of sucked it up and and did that and that was sort of that stigma

uh or mindset that we live to I didn’t buy that I think talking about this talking about this not only helps us but it helps other you guys to understand I mean you’re doing a lot of this work you guys get an understanding by talking to us about you’re going to see this again you’re going to see this I mean we’re always going to be fighting some stupid war so what she does she starts at the beginning of you know dnbn foo and the the french influence and everything like that and how you know she starts from there and works her way up to every year the ambient foo 1960 the coup were 1963 where zm was assassinated and then how uh you know the american entry started to increase and everything so you know she starts the you know she starts that process and and uh then we get to the part where you know jim is who jim was a caisson which is the you know caisson was the big moment in Vietnam it’s almost like being at

Iwo Jima and Jim was there and it was just you know the guy was anyway so we they we go from a secret sequential kind of uh format up until uh you know the nva go in and crash through the gates and the United States is leaving and everything like that so that’s kind of like the format and you know there’s she has uh movies and she has a textbook that she’s kind of put together and she has Jim and I sort of to contribute to sort of you know that junk where the kids can ask questions and we can give our personal experiences like we’re doing here with this thing here so it’s it’s a pretty good class and she’s a you know uh she’s a very you know astute and and great woman for what she’s doing and everything so and I’d like you know like I said it helps Jim and I too because you know like I said one of the things that the Vietnam veterans I talk to is it’s their PTSD never going to leave us it’s always going to be there some people in this in the va say no we you know you can deal with it but I for Vietnam veterans because of that gap between 70 and we started getting able to talk to somebody you sort of have that stuff that’s ingrained that’s sort of inside you that you have to live with and it’s hard to get rid of as you get older it’s harder to dump things and everything so there are people like Jim and I that are into it that we want to deal with this situation and it helps us it helps us make be better people and to get along.

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